Thanks to everyone for the comments on a couple of my "half in reviews" posts. Today's blog is actually based on the responses to my EPW in review. In particular, the following two comments:
" And, if someone doesn't take the time to read the entire backstory, or inquire about it? I don't feel bad about them not getting it." (Jamar)
"Karl, maybe you should have read the roleplays for those shows too. It was made very clear the history between the two as they built that story up, and roleplay is most definitely a part of fed continuity.
If you don't read the roleplay along with the whole show, you can hardly complain about presentation of a feud." (Dave)
OK, first things first - I did read the roleplays for the shows. Throughout my time as a member of the EPW roster, I read every RP posted in every match. Even today, since I left, I've read every RP - it's taken longer to read them all since I left, but I do still read them.
With the two cards that caused me the most distress, I re-read those RPs several times before making a decision I still maintain was the right one. I left Empire Pro Wrestling because of the Daymon/Stevens segments on the shows, because they were incredibly distressing to read.
Not that they weren't well written - I just didn't like a lot of what was in the segments across the two cards, and didn't see that they made sense.
WHICH is where this post comes in.
You're in a new fed for your character. There's some history between them and another character, but it goes into another fed, and you want to feud with them.
What do you do?
What I think happened with the Daymon/Stevens stuff, is it was assumed people understood the entire backstory. However, one thing I've maintained throughout my e-fed career, is that you shouldn't rely on that kind of thing. To take a real-life comparison - how much reference did WCW make to the "Mega-Powers Explode!" story the WWF ran between Hogan and Savage when the two feuded in WCW?
As I remember it, not much. The feud was one we'd seen before, but it was over something new - Hogan turning on Savage, then leadership of the nWo. I don't actually remember any mention of the "Mega-Powers" feud.
Which made sense - WCW and WWF were in competition. The two could've cut promos harking back to the WWF days, but I don't remember them doing it - they managed to, very quickly, established a reason that was real to the WCW crowd as to why they'd dislike each other so much.
To take an e-wrestling example - Karl "The Dragon" Brown and Adam Benjamin have had a history for a long time. When we first met in EPW, we'd already had a barnstormer in MCW, and I think it was about the same time that Benjamin cost Brown the NWL World Heavyweight Title. Yes, we mentioned the MCW and NWL bits when we met in EPW - but we kept the focus as being EPW; we allowed the story to grow in EPW to the point we wouldn't need to mention other feds, because the history was there in Empire Pro Wrestling.
Between Stevens and Daymon, I did not see the history. Why should Caitlyn, based on what was presented in EPW, decide to taser Stevens? Why would Rocko drug his own wife "for her own protection"? The only part that made EPW storyline sense, based on segments and Role-Plays, was after the tasering when Stevens confronted Caitlyn in the hotel (even though I found the writing there very disturbing, on a personal level for reasons I refuse to go into because I don't want to drag up some bad memories for myself).
The main difficulty, and I've seen this in a lot of feds, is that people assume that the backstory is known. Or, as Jamar states, that we can enquire about it.
I think that's, a) the wrong attitude, and b) very arrogant. I'll be honest. The TV audience isn't going to go digging round for old tapes from feds that've closed down so they're up to date with everything. You as the reader don't write to the author to know the complete backstory of a novel or play/film. You base your decision based on what you see. The wrestling audience would base their reactions on what they had seen/heard - and there was nothing in the Stevens/Daymon stuff which led me to believe that the segments were justified.
I'm not jumping on Jamar, Ryan or Dave here - they knew the backstory. Heck, I've seen feud after feud after feud in different feds start because of "wrongs done in past feds". It's something I've always disagreed with. When Dave and I wrote a couple of RPs against each other in A1E, and I was mentioning Blitz leaving EPW, I made sure to tie it into A1E and how Leonard felt that Dan Ryan didn't know how to run a wrestling company.
With the Stevens/Daymon stuff, the relevance for the EPW audience wasn't clear. As I've said, I'd've had no problem if it'd been a slower-burning feud in Empire Pro - which is why I'd've kept JA as number one contender. You could've built a hatred up between Rocko and Sean whilst running a Stevens/JA programme, and made it something unique - using a feud that's been done elsewhere, a hatred that starts elsewhere, but makes perfect sense to the new audience, with new reasons unique to the new fed/environment the two characters find themselves in.
Like I've also said - with the history in EPW, the feud could move on now at that kind of level, and I wouldn't have a problem. Personally I may dislike some of what's written, but it wouldn't jump out as being odd or uncalled for. But, as a reader, I did not know the backstory. The relevance wasn't explained in segments, or Role-Plays, adequately for me, part of the new audience, to understand it. Maybe it's the part of me that follows Barthe's "Death of the Author" theory, but the intentions of any author are irrelevant - it's what the reader takes from it that matters. So if the reader doesn't understand the author's intention, it's not the reader's fault - the author hasn't done a good enough job explaining. If the author is relying on a history that the reader may not have knowledge of, again, that's the author's responsibility.
By all means, have a feud between characters that've feuded before. I've really enjoyed a lot of them - the Dakota Smith/Maelstrom feud in NWL was excellent, as one example. HOWEVER - this hobby is based, not just in writing, but in PROFESSIONAL WRESTLING. And every feud I've seen in professional wrestling is built into the fed, as part of the fed; no knowledge of feuds between the two characters in other feds required. I honestly think that THAT is the way to go - maybe mention that there is some history. But don't have it as the primary reason for the feud, don't use it as the tinder for the fire. Have it fan the flames, but make sure the flames start, and end, totally in the fed the characters are in at that moment.
I hope that clarified a few things. Next time, I'll be posting a show-review - A1E's latest PPV cycle gets reviewed as Golden Dreams hits the airwaves.
And before I go - congrats to Holzerman on his upcoming wedding :) And the EPW title win. Congratulations, and may your married life be everything you wish it to be.
6 comments:
I never said or implied that anyone should know the backstory of Daymon/Stevens for them to GET the feud. You didn't GET the feud so I spoke on their backstory to explain to you why it was on the level that it was. So, your 'arrogant' insult was inaccurate, unfair, and should be apologized for. You said that the feud got too nasty too fast, and I simply explained each character's mindset. Just because YOU don't know that they've known each other for eight years doesn't mean they should start the feud completely over, as if THEY don't know each other, because in actuality, they are VERY familiar with one another. What you're suggesting is VERY unrealistic.
Using your WCW reference. When Savage first arrived in WCW, you're right, nobody talked about the Mega Powers. But, if you paid attention to that whole storyline, they had them tag in a pay-per-view, immediately upon Savage's arrival, playing it up that Savage may potentially turn on Hogan, with Hogan showing genuine concern and uncertainty. So, you basically tried to make a point, but succeeded only in hurting my eyes, as I read and re-read it, trying to figure out just exactly what that point was.
WCW didn't act like Savage and Hogan didn't know each other, because that would've been STUPID. Just as stupid as Rocko Daymon and Triple X shaking hands and hugging, just because they are in a different fed, when they ARE bitter enemies. By your logic, the whole EPW/A1E ppv should've never happened, because Dave and company would be ARROGANT for assuming we had time in our busy schedules to read an A1E card, and understand WHY beast and irishred tried to take over EPW. By your logic, it's clearly possible that Dan Ryan and Beast could be sworn enemies in A1E, and best friends in EPW. By your logic, well ... I'm tired of your logic, because it's a selfish logic, that clearly makes no sense.
What about when the Ultimate Warrior came to WCW? Wasn't that match based around their epic match in Canada, and built up as Hogan against the man he could never beat? Didn't they only wrestle once? Was it in WCW? D'oh! Try again, Karl. Or what about Hall/Nash, when they invaded WCW? Wasn't that originally dubbed as WWF invades WCW? If not flat out dubbed, it was DEFINITELY applied. Nobody pretended not to know them, and they did not go their and start over. They came in and were major players due to who they were in WWF/E. Or what about when Goldberg came to WWE and faced Triple H? Or when Madusa tossed the WWF/E Women's title in the trash on WCW TV ... or when Ravishing Rick Rude came on WCW Nitro, the same day he appeared on a taped episode of Raw, and completely shit on Shawn Michaels, and praised Bret Hart, when on the other channel, he was in HBK's corner?! I could go on for hours, but I hope I don't have to.
Nobody assumed people knew or understood their history. After maybe one RP or two in the first KOTC thread, we never even TALKED about their past. Only their present problems. I strongly encourage you to go back and re-read those posts, and segments. With prescription glasses, this time.
And, if that's not enough, how can you criticize the Daymon/Stevens stuff for being based on the past(which is untrue), and not mention the Daymon/Stalker stuff which was TOTALLY based on their past? That's called being hypocritical.
Le me try to explain everything to you, I'll even break it down like I would a 3rd grader.
1.)Why should Caitlyn, based on what was presented in EPW, decide to taser Stevens?
a.) Because a month prior, Stevens and Rocko fought in a close contest for the EPW king of the cage that stevens won, barely. Stevens, being a heel, didn't like that it was so close, and Rocko, being able to get under Stevens' skin spoke freely on how Stevens barely beat him, which led to Sean beating Rocko up – old school wrestling style, but you didn't notice, cuz you were too busy turning your nose up to actually read it – backstage then kissing his wife.
Caitlyn's responose? The next week, she tasered him. And, made him eat something nasty(i forget what it was) as a payback for him sticking his tongue in her mouth(as people tend to do when kissing)
2.) Why would Rocko drug his own wife?
a.) Because week after week Rocko's enemies would try to get to him by bothering and attacking his wife. Rocko, trying to protect her, knocked her out with a chlorophyll soaked rag, and hid her in his trunk. So that no one would attack her. And, sure, that's a bit rash, but if you actually read Rocko/Caitlyn that's who they ARE, no matter what fed they're in.
In closing, the only thing that I seem to have gotten out of both of your blogs was that you were looking forward to a JA reign, and the fact that Daymon/Trip interrupted it left you a bit upset. If that's the case, I apologize for that, but you should probably know that Ryan and I never talked about things happening that way, nor did we plan it, it just happened. Maybe that was Dave's booking, who knows? We just rolled with the punches, and in my mind, got a great feud and PPV main event match out of it. Fortunately for you, JA is now the EPW champ, so I hope that allows you to relax, get over yourself, and actually read stuff before you criticize it.
And, if you did REALLY read it, and got all of that blog out of it? That's SUPER scary.
Karl...
I didn't say anything when you said you didn't like the angle on EPW forums, cause that was your opinion, even if it was a tad uncharacteristic to give non-constructive and non-argumentative criticism in a feedback forum.
I didn't say anything when you gave detailed reasons for disliking the angle in your previous blot post, even when you seemingly insinuated that I somehow snubbed Tom Holzerman by winning a roleplay-based blow-off match.
I was going to let this blow over completely without comment, because I've always had a respect for you, your characters, and your angles, and I've never had a bad thing to say about you. I still don't. But given that it's still seemingly an issue, and new information has come to light, I'm going to clarify this right now:
Karl, you're missing the point entirely. The history precluding Empire Pro wasn't the driving force behind the Stevens/Daymon feud. In fact, their rivalry from SCW was only briefly mentioned in their first encounter.
I'll map it out for you, step by step...
Aggression 31 - Rocko Daymon and Sean Stevens met in the semi-finals of the KotC tournament. They acknowledged history, but also realized this was a different time and a different place. After a very heated exchange in words and a long, exhausting battle, Stevens came out the winner, thanks to the inadvertent interference of Ice Tre.
In the time that follows, Daymon drops Stevens' name, obviously bitter about the defeat.
Russian Roulette - Daymon competes in the number one contender match-up. After coming up short, he goes to the backstage area, only to be attacked by Stevens with a chair, kicked while he's down, and forced to watch as Stevens forcibly kisses his wife. A major insult that was not to be unpunished.
Aggression 32 - Caitlyn retaliates for Stevens' attack. In response to having his tongue forced down her throat, she forces a bit nasty thing down his. It's poetic justice. The reason a taser was used was because I couldn't think of any other believable way for a smaller woman to completely incapacitate a veteran professional wrestler to the point of having a sausage rammed into his mouth. Rocko interrupts this attack, establishing that he knows retaliation is useless.
Aggression 33 - Rocko dumps Caitlyn in the trunk for her own protection. I figured after spending MONTHS trying to establish Caitlyn as a fire-willed fighting woman who'd rather punch you in the face than be told to stay at home, this would be an understandable move on Rocko's part. It doesn't work, as Stevens attacks Caitlyn in the hotel room. And, really, after being blindsided, electrocuted, and having something rank in his mouth, it's only natural that Stevens would get revenge, and then some.
Skip to Aggression 35 - Rocko wins the number one contendership, the culmination of a three-way feud between himself, JA, and Hiroshi. Rather than retaliating against the man that made his life a living hell, Daymon decided to prevail on his own power to prove he deserves to fight Stevens for the title at Black Dawn.
Black Dawn - After a hard-fought battle, Daymon achieves his four-year long ambition of being the EPW World Heavyweight Champion, and does so by defeating a rival that has done everything possible to get under his skin. Sets up a standard happy ending.
Aggression 36 - Believing he's moved on from Stevens, Daymon focuses his attention to Stalker. However, in the final moments of their culminating battle, Stevens gets his revenge, sending Daymon out of a third story window.
Aggression 37 - Stevens demands his rematch clause. Daymon appears, injured, and drops the title without any say in the matter. Feud ends with an uncertain future for the former champion. In the end, while Daymon triumphed in the ring, Stevens got the last laugh.
I really don't know what argument you're trying to postulate in weighing the negatives of old rivalries carrying over into present times. The Stevens/Daymon stuff had nothing to do with that. From the way I saw it, it was very much a self-contained EPW epic.
Ironically enough, while you spend so much time focusing on your distaste for Stevens/Daymon, you make practically no mention of Stalker/Daymon, which very much WAS an old-rivalry carried over. Your argument could stand for that particular feud, but even so, Justin (Stalker) and myself went through great effort to give both characters NEW reasons to hate each other. On top of that, SO MUCH in EPW was founded on feuds that were carried over from other federations. There's even a carried-over feud happening NOW with Lindsay Troy and Craig Miles. I can understand a personal dislike for that kind of thing, and I think your argument stands, but if you're just going to single out one feud for the wrong reasons in light of all the other angles and feuds that have made up EPW over the past four years, then you're blatantly being hypocritical on some part.
Furthermore, I'm absolutely SHOCKED to discover that what Jamar and I were doing was the reason behind your leaving Empire Pro. I really don't know how to react to something like that, realizing that trying to pitch an interesting storyline would alienate one of the federation's mainstays for four years because the segments simply "disturbed" him. Apart from crucifixions, castrations, hand-birthing, living burials, electrocutions, and everything else that's happened in real promotions over the years, I hardly felt the two of us were scratching the surface on what could be considered "disturbing."
I've seen angles I didn't care for and segments I could have done without... but I stuck to it anyway. Look at the dildo-on-a-pole match in NEW--not saying I didn't like that match, personally, but it can be used as an example of something disturbing to at least some audience members, so much that it needed a DISCLAIMER at the start of the match. And yet Mr. Entertainment stuck to NEW to remain its most prominent TV champion.
I also think this needs to be said: Stevens/Daymon was never planned. The whole thing just sort of happened, with one person doing something for one show, and the other person responding. The original angle of focus was supposed to be the battle for the number one contender spanning over a PPV cycle, beginning with Russian Roulette up to Black Dawn. I take most of the credit for planning this angle out, and I pitched it to Dave for his approval. He gave me the go-ahead, because he wanted a story to be told.
Here was the intended angle: The triple threat match at RR was supposed to end in controversy, setting up for a series of matches over the next course of shows. This was ANGLED, by the way, with JA scoring the pin on Rocko following the interference. Every match was to end in similar controversy, thanks to the constant interferences of Stalker. Reason why Stalker was involved was because he had a small feud with Hiroshi following his Wrestlestock debut, and he had a history with Daymon. My reason for involving him was in case Daymon didn't win the blow-off match, he'd have an opponent for Black Dawn.
In the last Aggression before BD was the blow-off match; basically, a rematch from Russian Roulette, this time without interferences, to determine the undisputed number one contender. This last match was to be the one that came down to the roleplays.
Now, I've never once questioned Dave's logic in judgment. There were times I agreed with it and times I disagreed, but it's his federation, so I always give him the benefit of the doubt and the freedom to have the final say in anything. While the three-way rivalry was going on, Jamar and I were shooting back and forth little retaliatory vignettes over the weeks, which was fall-out from the RR assault. It just so happened that this gave me a bit of material to work off of when the triple-threat blow-off rolled around, making Daymon's ascension to the title picture natural.
That's all there is to it. I roleplayed my ass off, I pitched a few angles I thought would be interesting, and in the end, happenstance saw me as the beneficiary. I apologize to those I "disturbed" in response to my creative efforts, and if Tom Holzerman or Mike Dove ever once felt snubbed or screwed over, they certainly didn't make it apparent to me. I even willingly allowed my character to be injured and drop the title, just in case there WERE hard feelings. I just wanted to write an interesting story, and was overall under the impression that it was a GOOD story based on all the positive feedback it was getting.
And I'm not posting this as an attack, Karl, but merely a clarification on my part. I'm not saying you SHOULD like our angle, but from the comments of yours, it doesn't seem that you've seen the entire thing through. I still feel that Karl Brown has an integral place in Empire Pro and think you should bring him back, but that's your decision and not mine. But if you think Empire Pro has suddenly become a different place based on my influence, then I really don't know what to say to you. I've had an influence on Empire Pro since day one, since Daymon/Sands, and you of all people should know that.
Thanks for the comments :)
Ryan - The reason my post made so much mention of the Daymon/Stevens storyline was based a lot on the comments made by Dave and Jamar to an earlier blog. I understand that maybe I should've commented on another couple of feuds, but the one that came to mind, based on the comments, was that one.
Jamar - I think there's a difference of opinion going on here. The "arrogant" term I used wasn't meant as an insult; it was meant to point out that your earlier comment that people should enquire about the backstory was one I disagreed with, for the reasons I outlined - the author's intention of any piece is irrelevant. If the author is so dedicated that their intention gets recognised by the audience, then the author has to make sure it's totally clear.
At no point did I suggest that you shouldn't have two characters who know each other, acting as if they don't. However - going back to Hogan/Savage - they didn't use the past animosity between the two, but geared the whole relationship around a simple fact - that across American professional wrestling these were two of the biggest names in history trying to co-exist.
Which isn't something I'd say of any characters in e-fedding.
Now, using the EPW/A1E storyline, as an EPW guy - the explanation for Dan wanting revenge (which is what I read the story as being about) came about because IrishRed and Beast, on an EPW PPV, took control of EPW. Something which Dave went to great lengths to explain. But the animosity to start A1E/EPW as a feud didn't just focus on that - as I recall it wasn't made a point until a ways in - you had the Beastlet segments, Houston's complaint to Dan, and the storyline of someone trying to wrest control of the A1E board.
In short, both, current, feds made an effort that the storyline was going to be understood by a larger audience.
I have re-read the Daymon/Stevens RPs from the shows that caused me the most distress; and, if I'm honest, I still do not see the hostility that would suggest a back history. I see a lot of mentions to "Rocko of seven years ago" from Stevens; I see a lot of instances where I keep expecting there to be some explanation as to why the hatred between the two is at those levels. But I, as a reader, don't see it.
And - since the history between the two characters is in another fed, dating back 8 years, and that fed isn't around any more - how can the reader be expected to know, or, in the case of a live wrestling audience, care?
You mention the first IC title match in EPW - yes, Jeff and I mentioned the Mayhem Mountain match in MCW (which took place I think around 6 months before Black Dawn, only two months or so before EPW opened). And, yes, there are parrallels - but, there wasn't the same hatred between the two characters. There was a respect, and we quickly moved things on into being EPW-centric - we even showed elements from that match, so people would know there was a history. Rather than just talking about it, we showed it.
I think that would've been something, in RPs, that could've been done in the Stevens/Daymon story.
What this all boils down to, as I see it, is a question of time, and people. As I said in my review of EPW, I felt that the timing of the Stevens/Daymon storyline didn't allow for the level of hatred that would put some of the actions into perspective - which is why I mentioned JA winning the #1 contenders match. I think there could've been a JA/Stevens feud for the title, and the bubbling of the Stevens/Daymon feud underneath it, to establish a level of hatred equal to what we went on to see. JA not winning the title wasn't an issue for me - if Rocko had won the #1 contender's match at the PPV, I'd've been happy. If Kin Hiroshi had won the #1 contender's match at the PPV, I'd've been happy.
What irked me, is that it felt, to me as a member of the audience, or as a reader, or however you wish to see it, that JA was shoved aside for a feud that came out of nowhere. The reasons we were given for the hatred between the two characters didn't make sense to me, as a reader, because they seemed focused in events dating back 8 years to a fed that doesn't exist. To give an example - a prospective feud between, say, William Regal and Dave Finlay. Would you want them talking about their days on World of Sport, some 20+ years ago?
I've maintained since the beginning that that Daymon/Stevens segments were well written. And I've read every one of them in EPW. It was just the pacing and reasons given for the feud, which struck me as wrong. I actually think that, at the point of the PPV match between Stevens/Daymon, the nastier elements could've started. I'd've still been distressed by them, but they would've made more sense.
I hope that clears things up. I do apologise, though, if I seem to be lacking in empathy, or my word-usage is a little insulting. I do have an Autistic Spectrum Disorder so sometimes I'm a little strange in how I speak/write :-p
Karl, you missed my two primary points:
1.) This was not a "backstory" feud. I don't know how many times we have to point that out. Look back to Rocko and Stevens' first encounter in KotC, the subsequent attack at Russian Roulette. That was the birth of the feud, sans 8 year backstory, and we made great efforts to make it EPW centric.
2.) The PPV number one contender match was an angled finish, meant to spawn the JA/Hiroshi/Daymon feud. Nobody was "shoved aside."
I understand you were just using the feud as an example for your opinions on feuds carried over from other federations, but Stevens/Daymon was anything but a "backstory" feud and I can't understand how you don't see that with all the events that went down.
Reread Russian Roulette and you'll understand the deep animosity between both characters. One man casts the first stone, and eventually, they're slinging boulders.
Thanks for trying to clear things up, Ryan :) I do appreciate it. However... I still don't see the hatred that'd lead to the actions post-Russian Roulette. I've re-read every match involving Daymon and Stevens from the KotC semi to the end of Russian Roulette - and the only incident which suggests, to me, that there was any type of history which might suggest that level of hatred developing was Sean forcing a kiss on Caitlyn, then smashing Rocko's head in.
I know the intention was to show a deep hatred, that'd lead to the actions in the segments. However, the KotC match didn't suggest that kind of deep hatred (to the point where tasers are used, there's a breaking and entering with assault, etc.). Heck, before Aggression 31, Stevens seemed to be going after Ice Tre, and Rocko was on a different path entierly; the hatred between Rocko and Stevens, I think, would've worked between Stevens and Tre at the time.
I'll be honest - I'm not perfect as a writer. I write a huge number of things. And every time someone says they don't understand something in my writing, I know I, as the writer, failed in my intention. Your and Jamar's intention seems to have been to tell a story with a deep amount of hatred between two characters with a history, in a new place. In telling a story, you two did brilliantly. But in developing that level of hatred for the audience - my opinion is, the hatred sprang out of nowhere. The only reason that seemed to be given, was a history in another fed 8 or so years earlier. Why should Stevens attack Rocko at Russian Roulette when the two hadn't directed any words towards each other since their match?
I do think, honestly, this is one of those moments where we can sit around for months talking about it. The facts are, though, that the intention of the authors wasn't what I, as the reader, got from it.
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